Francotte Serial Numbers
Hi found you on the Firearms forum. I have a Francotte shotgun of my father's. Trying to find out about it.side by side hammer engraved metal looks like it had some gold something on it and seems varnishedTop of damascus Barrels has: 8601 R Francotte Paris Franceinside on bottom of barrels it has various 4 digit numbers, symbols:two crown and af marksE L G and a star in a ovalcrown and V very smalla name: J Arn???stock inside hascrown over MGB (small4 digit numbers (2 places)Outside on action has Paris France on one sideA Francotte on the otherthank you. First and foremost, DO NOT SHOOT IT; with any ammo. Better safe, than sorry!Second the EGL. in a oval shows that it was standard service load Black Powder proofed in Belgium!
The 'AF' mark could indicate French mfg. Other than at St. Etienne.The barrels might or might not actually be damascus type steel. Some cheaper guns had solid steel barrels treated to appear damascus.
Even if so shooting it is certainly not recommended as safe today based on the sketchy info you have supplied.I suggest that you get a digital camera and post some really clear detailed photos of everything (detail) that you can. Then members here can speak from actual knowledge as opposed to guessing. I am having a hard time actually reading the various proof marks. It appears to have both Belgian and French marks.
Francotte Shotguns Value
I suspect that it was actually made and proofed in Belgium and imported into France. The little stamp mark that looks like an old graveyard monument is a Belgian Perron in use since 1853.From the pics I can not opine if the barrels are fake or real forge welded steel. In any case, I see no evidence of anything but a Black Powder regular proof and opine that it is definately not prudent to fire it with anything today.I do not think that it is worth the effort to take more detaild pics of the proof marks. I do not think this shotgun likely has more than 'old wall hanger' value today.Some other member with more than my very limited knowledge of this type of material, might have a different opinion. This gun is pre-Anson fore-end latch patent as August used the Anson latch mechanism almost exclusively after about 1890.but even more interesting is the gun appears to be a transitional lock-up model.
Although the barrels look original, something is strange. Here are all the Belgian proof marks:The gun is a 12ga with an 18mm bore diameter. It was Black Powder proofed only. I believe the Crown V is a very early controller of proof mark. This proof mark was used from 1853-1877.Because of the lever, I am guessing it was made some time after the Jones patent in 1859. By 1876 Francotte had developed his version and patented it in Belgium and England.This gun has been abused, at least stored very badly.
The value would be rather low. No where what his boxlocks are currently selling for, $900 and up.The Firearms Forum is on online community for all gun enthusiasts. Join us to discuss firearms of all kinds, gun accessories, legal issues and more. Membership is free and we welcome all types of shooters, whether you're a novice or a pro. Come for the info, stay and make some friends. Site Functions.
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Hello guys!I am new to this Forum, and therefore apologise in advance in case I make any unwanted mistakes.I have just purchased the gun pictured below, and not knowing much about these Westley Richards guns I would need someone kind enough to enlighten me on the model and serial number.The gun has two numbers stamped on it, 1897 with an 'R' in a following line on the side of the barrel, same on the underside of the action, and lastly on the top of the barrel. The other number is as shown in the pictures a 235 on both action and barrel.I need to know which is the Serial Number, and then, if it happens to be the 235, would the 1897 be a model Nr.?I really will appreciate any help you may provide.All the best,Alfred.
DoubleD has a couple of these Westley Richards Improved Martini rifles (aka Majuba), & I'm sure he'll be along to point you in the right direction. I would speculate that the 1897 is the serial number & the 235 is an assembly number. Do you know the caliber? I see from the proof marks (52) it is a.45 caliber, & the knoxform is marked 'For No.2 Case', so I'm assuming it's a.500/.450 No.2 Musket.I really like these rifles, to me they are so ugly they are beautiful.if that makes sense! Where did you find this one? I wouldn't go as far as saying that the ZAR's were made inBelgium - the actions most certainly were, but the complete rifles probably not. Yes Gert, I stand corrected, but what a fine job Auguste Francotte and his Liege crew made of it?
For me to say just the actions were made in Belgium seems such a understatement of Francotte’s abilities. I don’t know what percentage of the ZAR’s by cost was made in Belgium, however at best I think Westley Richards could state; ‘Assembled In Britain’, unlike my W W Greener rifle which is stamped ‘Entirely British Made’ on the barrel, or something like that. I’m very interested in the subject rife in WR No 2 Musket and when and where it was made!I saw ‘Not British’ stamped on a imported post war German rifle, it made me chuckle. At least the Proof Marks on the subject rifle are consistent with that of the Birmingham Proof House. As viewed from the breech end, (1) the Provisional Proof - a crown over BP, (2) the View mark - crossed scepters with a crown and a V, (3) a bore gauge number (52 gauge), (4) the Definitive Proof - crowned scepters with the initials BPC.To my critics in the UK, I know that I’ve used the US spelling of ‘Scepter’, not ‘Sceptre’, so what!Regards to all.Last edited by Short-Sighted; at 09:45 AM. Yes Gert, I stand corrected, but what a fine job Auguste Francotte and his Liege crew made of it?
For me to say just the actions were made in Belgium seems such a understatement of Francotte’s abilities. I don’t know what percentage of the ZAR’s by cost was made in Belgium, however at best I think Westley Richards could state; ‘Assembled In Britain’, unlike my W W Greener rifle which is stamped ‘Entirely British Made’ on the barrel, or something like that.
I’m very interested in the subject rife in WR No 2 Musket and when and where it was made!I saw ‘Not British’ stamped on a imported post war German rifle, it made me chuckle. At least the Proof Marks on the subject rifle are consistent with that of the Birmingham Proof House. As viewed from the breech end, (1) the Provisional Proof - a crown over BP, (2) the View mark - crossed scepters with a crown and a V, (3) a bore gauge number (52 gauge), (4) the Definitive Proof - crowned scepters with the initials BPC.To my critics in the UK, I know that I’ve used the US spelling of ‘Scepter’, not ‘Sceptre’, so what!Regards to all.My understanding that Francotte made the actions for WR and sent them to Britain, where the rest of the parts were made, the guns fitted up and finished, and proofed.If that understanding is incorrect, I'll be happy to get edumacated on the matter. Hi Short-Sighted.
Francotte Serial Numbers
If the action was made by A. Francotte shouldn't it have some kind of mark? If not a mark such as a punch mark, some birth mark to look for? This information of these old gumakers outsourcing their work is quite suprising! 'Nothing new under the sun i suppose.Hi,Like Gert said, the Fancotte made action has a ‘crown’ over ‘AF’ stamped on it, also the action has an own assembly number stamped on the major parts. WR also added the rifle serial number, so that the action was tired into the rest of the rifle. Please refer to the link for example photos of the ZAR rifle:Your rifle may have been 100% made in England.
When are you going to shoot it?RegardsLast edited by Short-Sighted; at 10:53 AM. This discussion about Francotte & the ZAR rifle pedigree prompted me to take a look at mine.
The example I have was made in 1898, & spent some time in South Africa (apparently some didn't get that far), as it has some Veld Art carved into the buttstock. Unfortunately, it has been reblued at some time, but is still a good shooter.On removing the forend I found the Crown/AF stamp on the frame directly under the barrel flat, partly obscured, along with the AF-applied serial number running up the face of the action (hidden by forend).The barrel shows no markings that would indicate any AF connection. Just an H on the lower flat, a unknown mark on the lug, & a small CB partially obscured by a dimple.
Francotte Shotguns
Further along the barrel bottom is a serial number that matches the one on the bottom of the action (sorry for the fuzzy image), which I assume was applied by Westley Richards.Here's a shot of the ZAR with a couple of its cousins in my gun room.The ZAR is on the bottom. The two immediately above (Thos. Turner.577/.450 Volunteer & a Field Rifle Co. Sporter in.500/.450 No.2 Musket) are 2nd cousins being 'true' Martini actions, whilst the 4th from the bottom (W.W. Greener 'Miniature Rifle') is a 1st cousin as it too has a Francotte-designed action.
I dug out my copy of Wal winfers Volume 4 The British Single Shot Rifle-Westley Richards. Winfer has entire chapter dedicated to this rifle.Here are the highlights-there is a lot more history in that chapter.Records indicate 30,663 ZAR Martini's were supplied between 1896-1899. Serial numbers start at numbers above 10,000 and fit with in the number sequence used by WR for sporting rifles.Francotte provided the action, and stamped their serial number on the action face and vertically on the action subassembly with the Crown over A.F.
Trademark for Francotte.Westley Richards also stamped the action along the bottom of the receiver wall and the under side of the barrel. Some rifles also had major internal parts mark with the last three digits of the WR serial number.There does not appear to be a relationship between Francotte serial numbers and WR serial numbers. WR apparently used the Francotte actions at random.
Hi, shooting the gun depends on how soon I can find the appropiate brass, as I have ordered an couple of boxes of CCI 20 gauge brass from the US, and they have got 'lost' (stolen) in the local mail. With current credit card and importation restrictions enforced it has become a mayor issue to import anything, let alone this kind of stuff! I will let you know when I manage something. Hi,I find your WR No 2 Musket rifle very interesting, I’ve looked on the web and I’ve found that style of WR rifle in other calibres, such as.577, but I cannot find any other information. Proof that I need more books!I hope that someone can provide you with the information you require.I also hope you can load the ammo and shoot it soon. Everyone I speak to that shoots No 2 musket rates it highly.Last edited by Short-Sighted; at 09:31 PM. 'What I would like help on this one is on identifying whether it is a civilian or military model, I know it is 577/450, but the Reilly reading on the right of the action should indicate something.
Who was this guy? Did he make the gun, or was he an armorer?
Any info on model / version etc. You have a very nice commercial Martini-Henry cavalry carbine. The features that indicate it is a non-military carbine is that it has Birmingham commercial proofs on the barrel, the Martini trademark on the left side of the action, & a retailer's name & address on the right side. Reilly would have had his mark applied to the rifle either by the supplier or in-house.
Military style commercial firearms were very popular, as they are now (eg. AR-15 commercial variants of the military M-16, etc.), & would have sold to private individuals, British military officers (who were required their own equipment up through WW1), volunteer units & other quasi-military style organizations. I state that it is a Cavalry Carbine, as it does not have provision for a bayonet whereas an Artillery carbine would, however, it may, or may not, conform precisely to the military-issued MHCC pattern.
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